NEW!! The Tap Room: 2021

 The Tap Room: January, 2021

The Tap Room was a popular feature on my old website, which now gets an occasional run out on here. Over the course of a week, I invite various fans to share their views on a topic connected to Thai football, until we have built up a lively debate. Here is our latest discussion:

Let's settle this once and for all, what level of the English league does Thai football compare with?

Reply #1

Name: Phil Williams

Team supported: Samut Prakan City

Twitter: @Ajarncom

I find it one of the most fascinating hypothetical questions about Thai football, namely ‘The Thai Premier League is roughly on a par with what level of English football?’ Exactly how good (or bad) is it? 

Just for clarification, when we talk about the levels of English football, we’re considering the 20 levels of the English football league pyramid, from the Manchester Citys and the Liverpools of the Premier League all the way down to the bottom rungs and the likes of the Bournemouth Saturday League, where undoubtedly a hungover rabble of delivery drivers, bricklayers and carpet fitters play for a modest match fee but mostly for the love of the game.

In the UK, I was something of a lower division and non-league football anorak. Colchester United have always been my ‘little team’ (it’s a long story) and I’ve seen them play plenty of times in the third and fourth divisions as well as watching Walsall Town Football Club, whose old Fellows Park Ground was just a short train ride from where I lived in Birmingham.

In the early 90’s Colchester were disastrously relegated from the football league into what was then the GM Vauxhall Conference (Level 5 of the pyramid) They were promoted back to the football league at the second attempt but I did get the opportunity to watch many games at that level at places as diverse as Telford, Kettering, Merthyr Tydfil and Runcorn.

To go even deeper into the English league system, I’ve seen a number of games at Coles Lane, the home of Sutton Coldfield FC (a suburb of Birmingham) They are currently level 8 of the pyramid and play in the Evostik something or other. 

Sorry that’s a bit of a long-winded introduction but I just wanted to establish my credentials. I’ve done my fair share of football grounds with sloping pitches, crackly tannoys and doddery turnstile operators who have been there 50 years but still can’t work out the change from a twenty pound note.

So where would the Thai Premier League fit in to that lot?

I’ve caught bits of discussions on this topic before and I seem to recall many folk saying you can’t compare the two countries because you have to take into consideration the heat, the humidity, the state of the playing surfaces, the weight of the ball, etc (I may have made that last one up) but I don’t buy into that at all. When you put eleven players up against eleven players, generally the best eleven will win, regardless of the conditions. OK, the heat and humidity might tip the scales in the Thai teams favour but not by all that much methinks. If you can do it on a wet Tuesday night in Merthyr Tydfil, you can do it on a balmy night at Muangthong. 

You’ve only got to browse Wikipedia and look at the playing careers to date of the foreign stars who grace the T1. Players the world over soon find their level, be it the Japanese third division, the Brazilian second tier or a handful of games for Swindon Town, before being told to sling their hook. And that’s where the majority of those foreign stars have come from – and yet they still mostly manage to shine for their relative Thai clubs. 

I said early last season (when I was still relatively new to watching Thai football) that I felt the T1 was on a par with the Vauxhall Conference (now called the National League) – which to reiterate, is level 5 of the English league system – and my opinion hasn’t changed. So in a handful of hypothetical match-ups, we might have; 

Stockport County v Trat FC

Notts County v Prachuap

Hartlepool v Police Tero 

Bloody hell, I wouldn’t have a clue where to put my gambling money!

Reply #2

Name: Russ John

Team supported: Nakorn Ratchasima FC

Twitter: @russreport

Oh crikey, good question Phil. I'm afraid my knowledge of lower tier football in England is poor - Wolves only sank to the fourth division and I haven't watched any live football in England for 20 years.

I think this question should be aimed at tactical aficionados but I, as a mere fan, will have a go.

The pace within the TPL is pretty slow and tactical awareness among Thai players seems limited, presumably caused by lack of good coaching from an early age. Physically most TPL players would be massacred by the hard running and strength of a typical English "bite yer legs" mentality.

I have always believed that Thais will always struggle in sports because of their “Mai pen rai” cultural upbringing. Thai footballer’s nice, non confrontational, approach would leave most terribly exposed to the cut and thrust, win at all costs, attitude prevailing within the English football pyramid.

So to the question; I think that the professionalism of the Buriram side of a couple of years ago would enable them to survive in England's third tier but most "ordinary" TPL teams would, as Phil suggests, probably be able to mix it with 'non league'" as was, fifth tier teams.

I'm not sure that climate or fitness are the major determinants in this argument, I suggest that physical size and lack of a real cut throat mentality would ultimately be the real reasons why Thai players would not cope with a full rumbustious season within the English leagues.

Not forgetting of course that TPL teams could possibly field 5 non Thais. Although most of these imports improve the standards. I am assuming that if these players had skills commensurate with those of players in, for example, lower European leagues they would be snapped up by those leagues and not end up plying their trades in the TPL, so no real impact on the argument.

So, around tier 5 it is and this is in no way meant to demean the standards in the TPL, after all, “it doesn’t have to be good to be enjoyable”!!

Footnote; Having watched Chorley, who currently compete in the National League North, the sixth tier of English football, dispatch Derby County in the FA Cup, I, as a Wolves supporter might ask, would I rather face Chorley or an average TPL team, let’s say Suphanburi, in the next round of the FA Cup? 

Well the answer would be – Suphan every time!!! 

Can I change my mind, most TPL teams would struggle in the English tier 6 or 7 leagues I’m afraid!!

Reply #3

Name: Jamie Pinder

Team supported: Buriram Utd

Twitter: @nangrongifo

So this is a discussion we’ve had many times over the last few years. The reality of course is that the average Thai team in the top league is probably a match for a top quality amateur English team or old fourth division maybe but then you have to look at the top teams that we’ve had over the last 10 years such as my team, Buriram United, and the great team they had which was unbeatable.

That team, supplemented by half a dozen or less players from the UK would have fared pretty well I imagine. If you could’ve added the right players in the right positions such as an extra fullback, a strong central defender, and a creative midfield player, then they would’ve maybe gone as high as the old third division. You need to remember that in that team there were players who had played Champions League football, who had played in good Brazilian leagues, and who were good international players within the region. I think sometimes we underestimate the quality of some of our players and add them to a team with a bit of quality and they would improve.

Some of our players have gone to play abroad such as Osmar Ibanez who won the Asian champions league while at FC Seoul. Usually players who get to play with better players improve themselves and I think if Thai players had the opportunity then they would also improve not just their skills but their strength and their tactical ability. It’s been shown by the players who moved forward that they can improve greatly.

One or two or even three of the current side here are rumored to be going to the UK to train with a top Premier League side and it’s very possible that one of them could stay in the England and be the first Thai player to play in the EPL.

But, when all is said and done, in my opinion, the average Thai League side is not much above nonleague standard and may just about get promoted to the main leagues but would struggle to stay there more than one or two seasons.

I’ve said once or twice that it would be fabulous if the Thai FA could make use of a short break in January and invite one or two top European teams to do their preseason training in Thailand and take part in a local four team competition when the Europeans are on their one-month winter break. It would be great for the fans and fun for the European teams to come here rather than doing the annual trips to Dubai in the Middle East.

Reply #4

Name: Richard Keyworth

Team supported: Chiang Mai FC

Twitter: @thaimiller2019

In the 11 seasons I’ve been supporting Chiang Mai  FC and the 9 seasons Ive been doing the CMFC English Fanzine this is certainly the most asked question from both friends back home and also new expats and tourist that come to watch CMFC for the first time.

My view on this has changed quite a few times over the years and although I don’t really have much experience with the top league in both Thailand where CMFC flirted briefly with it last season but found it very difficult with Chiang Rai Utd as a parent club pulling the strings and also in the UK where I supported Rotherham United since a kid, including 5 seasons from 1998 to 2003 where I never missed a game home or away before moving to Thailand, these included back to back promotions from fourth to third to second but never into the promised land. So I’m really going to concentrate more on the teams and divisions I know better.

When I first started watching CMFC they were the big team in the North regional league where they would go around spanking teams like Tak, Lampang, Nakhon Sawan four, five, six nil etc and I thought at this stage that the standard was pretty good and they could possibly make or hold their own in the fourth tier in England, but as they moved up to a national league in 2011 and the money was a bit tighter and teams around them a bit stronger I realized that this was a pipe dream and they probably wouldn’t be good enough for the conference back home.

My first taste of the top league in Thailand was Muang Thong Vs BEC Tero around 2012 and I didn’t get what I was expecting, I thought it would be a lot better standard of football than it was from supposedly two of the giants of Thai football at the time. So again I thought where would these 2 be in The Uk league tier and I probably though lower 4th division at best.

Then after attending games of Zico’s golden generation at the national team level from 2014 until 2018 WC qualifiers I changed my mind again as some of those players would certainly make teams in the 1st and 2nd division in the UK right? I told anyone that would listen in the UK about Chanathip and Theerathon who have both gone on to be successful in pastures new but would they have made it in the lower leagues in the UK with being so slight framed, especially the little man?

The one game I really thought that Thai football would be competitive in the UK leagues was Buriram Vs Muang Thong in probably 2018 and it was an high scoring game maybe 3-2 and both teams played flat out and I would have put that into the second tier of Uk football, but games like that don’t happen every week and although I don’t watch the TPL every week when I do I am never that impressed much with the standard apart from the odd game and team.

So my answer to the question is probably I don’t know where the top teams would fit in the UK, I would say certain players including a lot of the younger ones coming through could make lower league teams, I doubt any player would make the EPL yet and for me certainly no Thai club would be good enough even for the third tier in the UK. Buriram  (usually) and this year BG would probably hold their own in the fourth tier, with the rest somewhere between the conference and tier 7 and unfortunately I would put Chiang Mai in the lower category.

Reply #5

Name: Steve Darby

Former Thailand national team coach

Twitter: @darbystevecoach

This is a complex question. If you were play a 10 game season, then I think the Thais could hold their own at a high level, but a 38 game season, over a filthy winter, and mental strength comes in to it. The reality is, that to survive you have to be a good specimen. I think a good 2010 Chonburi team could have survived a 15 game English Championship season.

As for individuals, Bryan Robson and Peter Reid, both far better qualified than me, felt two players - Teerasil Dangda and Kawin Thamsatachanan - could have handled lower English Premier League and about 5 more - Suree Sukha, Surat Sukha, Nattaporn Phanrit, Nattapong Samana and Panupong Wongsa - could've handled the English Championship. As you can see, all good physical specimens

Put one Thai in a good team and they could have succeeded, eg Sutee Suksomkit. I sent him to Chelsea, they wanted to sign him and loan him to Brentford for a year to adapt. Which I think he would have done. He - along with Surat - had the mental strength, which is so important.

Chanathip? I dont know, as I never coached him, but my gut feeling is that he would struggle physically. Datsakorn would have struggled physically. Nattapong wouldnt have cared! Just smiled.

Reply #6

Name: James Clarke

Team supported: Port FC

Twitter: @ValderramasHair

One of the major stumbling blocks in answer to the question is that the gap between the top and bottom of the TPL is far greater than to fit one tier of the English set up (or even two).  Something which also serves to hold the better Thai teams back, if a fair percentage of your games played against teams considerably worse than you, then it allows sloppiness to sneak in. 

Having read the previous replies, I think I'd have the top of the division slightly higher than other contributors, with the top teams living comfortably in League One (some individuals would cut it in the championship), while the bottom would struggle against my local side, St Albans City, in the English sixth tier. 

 

I agree with Steve that the winter would be a major barrier to Thai success. The temperature has dropped into the upper teens here and the Thais around me have taken to wearing jumpers and the odd coat. So it's hard to imagine many would be up for classic wet Wednesday at your lower league hellhole of choice. 

However, I take the opposite view to him over the effect of a full season. The better players and teams adapt to the circumstances they find themselves in, and learn to deal with the challenges presented. 5 or 10 games might not be enough for that process to take place, but come the back end of a full season, some would have got on top of the new issues confronting them. 

I suspect it might not be the most obvious contenders (both individually and as clubs), rather those who work hard, are adaptable and have a willingness to learn. Numerous players who are considered a success in Thailand wouldn’t cut it, while other less-heralded players possessing those traits, would be more than able to make it in England. For example, at Port, Nitipong might not be the biggest star but he has those attributes by the bucketload and would be someone I'd expect to transition easily. 

Theerathon’s time in the J League also highlights this. I doubt many predicted when he first went to Japan that he would go on to win a title and build his reputation to such an extent that he is considered amongst the best fullbacks in Japan and even made the International Federation of Football History and Statistics (IFFHS) Asian team of 2020. 

Russ mentions the lack of “bite yer legs” players in Thailand and it’s a fair point. They are lacking and something I miss about the English lower leagues. That’s not to say they don’t exist. When I first arrived in Thailand, I always enjoyed seeing Adrul’s combative performances. 

But too many of the current crop of Thai central midfielders are lightweight, flat-track bullies, who would be overrun in the battle of the English game, before they’d even made the decision that they didn’t fancy it. The current Port top two, Sarach and Siwakorn would be prime examples. While I’d expect their midfield partners, Thitipan and Go, would have a great time in England. 

So I’ll conclude as I started, by saying there isn’t a simple answer, but it would be interesting to see how it played out.

Reply #7

Name: Rob Bernard

Groundhopper

Twitter: @Rob_Bernard

Haha, this is a question that often comes up when I return home after trips and chat to mates

when I’ve watched football outside England.

It’s a conundrum that I find slightly easier to assess if I’ve been watching whatever level in

say Germany, Austria or Scotland as the climate is very similar, which in turn sees a similar

tempo of play. Incidentally, I do attend anything from the top professional division right down

to amateur non-league wherever I go.

As for countries in hotter humid climates such as Thailand. Now that isn’t so easy.

If I had to throw a guess out there, I’d probably say National League or League Two would

be comparable to Thai League 1 which seems the general consensus.

How would say a Stevenage fare away to Buriram on a hot Tuesday night in November?

Either of those clubs would adapt in in the opposite’s country after a while, whether it was

tactics, fitness or pace. One big difference I do find is the standard of the goalkeeping. 

I wonder if people in Singapore make jokes about Thai keepers in the way the English would

about the Scots when I was growing up? I’ve seen some very dodgy performances with a

theatrical claim of injury after a howler. All part of the entertainment mind.

I think a huge deciding factor would be money. I’m sad to say that it matters too much in the

modern game. How would a League Two club go on with the same income as in Thailand? I

say this with the old how would Celtic and Rangers get on the Premier League, every time a

sports shock jock needs to fill in an hour. They’d struggle to start with until they started

getting the same TV money.

Back to Thai against English football, I often relate to Baz Savage. Baz was a steady away

lower league journeyman in England, without not being quite good enough to go any higher.

Yet he was the stand out performer at TOT on the couple of matches I saw him.

I was lucky enough to get a chat with him when with Dale at a Chonburi game. He told us his

agent could get him a six month deal at Accrington or two years at TOT, which I found an

eye opener and a bit of a surprise that others don’t venture across. Maybe they’d miss the

pies?

So, I use Baz as my barometer. Though there are obviously there are better and worse

players than when he was playing in the lower league’s here and in the top Thai league. And

standards may have got better or worse in both countries since then?

As for some of the T3 and T4 I’ve been to over the years. I honestly think I played in as high

a level in local football back home as one or two distractions to the day out that I’ve

attended. Although I didn’t have to run around in ridiculous temperatures. Indeed, some

would say I didn’t in cold weather either!

As you can probably detect, I think it’s a very complex discussion and one we’d never really

get an answer to unless we managed to cobble together an amalgamated division with

salary caps in somewhere such as Italy with a climate midway between the two countries

with a referee from somewhere neutral.

There’s one thing for sure. I can’t wait to escape the UK and carry out further research,

whether it’s right down to Thai amateur football. There is nothing like travel, adventure and

football.

Reply #8

Name: Mika Chunuonsee

Bangkok Utd player

Twitter: @Chunuonsee16

“What's the standard like in Thailand compared to the league back in the UK? Would it be League 1?"

That's probably the question I get asked the most from my mates, and also other players, back in UK. Having read all the previous replies in this discussion, I would have to say I agree with most of the guys' opinions and analysis of the league here. Even though football is the same game all around the world, you can't compare the level in Thailand to anything over in the UK. Indeed, most of us can't even agree on where Celtic and Rangers would be if they joined the English league.

But my opinion and thoughts on this are simple; the Thailand national team can maybe play in the Championship and the top 5 teams in Thai league, can play League 1, and they would be OK.  People will say “no chance”, “not physically strong enough”, and “the Thai league is too sloppy”, but having played international football, believe me, Thai league teams will do better against Championship teams than they would against League 2 teams. Why? That's because the higher you play, the more technical the game is, and Thai players are probably the most technically gifted players I've played with.

Additionally, with sports science and technology being introduced to our game over the past few years, Thai players are stronger and also more professional, with the nutrition and diet, so the league is definitely more professional now than when I first came 10 years ago. Back then, I would have said to you non-league standard, without hesitation.

If you remember a few years ago when Reading played Thailand U23s, some of the Reading players I knew back then, told me the technical ability of the Thai players was unbelievable, and these players could definitely play back in the UK.

In conclusion, I think the best way to compare is probably by watching Thailand v Australia, or Thai teams against A League clubs, because Australian football is similar to the English game. Over the last few years we have definitely held our own and done well against them, at both club and country level. So, like I said, it's all opinions, but all I can say is the league is getting better. 

The Final Word

Name: Phil Williams

Team supported: Samut Prakan City

Twitter: @Ajarncom

Thanks to everyone who contributed to an interesting discussion. I think most were in agreement that Thai football is about on a par with the English National League (level 5 or level 6 of the English league pyramid).

The contributions towards the end from Steve and Mika were probably the most crucial to the discussion because it's difficult to argue against someone who has actually played or coached the game professionally. 

So basically we need to organize a two-legged play-off between the top of the Thai league and the top of the National League and test out our theory. So BG Pathum v Torquay United it is.