20th July, 2015
Reply#1
Name: Tommie Duncan
Team supported: Port FC
Twitter: @TJRDBKK
I am going to keep to three points -
1. Quality of play and competition. I know this is purely subjective but to my eyes the quality of play has decreased each of the five seasons I have been a fan. I attribute this to the switch from 5 foreigners a side, to 3 +1, and then to even lesser quotas of foreign players signed on the squad. Yes, I know, I know, we want Thais to have a chance to play, but we also want to see the level of play for Thais increasing. Having to compete for your spot with better foreign players pushes you. Sink or swim! 3 + 1 is also a bigger burden to the smaller teams, as the good Thai players only want to go to the bigger sides. When I mention that I am a TPL fan to Thais who are not, they kind of laugh and talk about how it is just not fun to watch because the players are not good. I agree more and more every year. Solution- Return to 5 aside no matter what the AFC says.
2. Horrid officiating and “not so fair” play. I am constantly amazed at the incompetence of the officials in the league. It is astounding that they manage to get so many calls wrong. It is frustrating at the least. And I don’t really see any impetus to improve on this. Combined with the whining, diving, and feigning of injury of the players and the Thai game is really quite unfair and at times intolerable to watch. No wonder it is a turn off to so many. Solutions- Send officials overseas for training and import crews. Introduce a point system for bad calls. Enough points and you are suspended. Instruct coaches to have their players play on and not kick the ball out of bounds every time a player goes down. Players that are deemed to be “wasting time” are carded and suspended for the next match.
3. Lack of marketing and not enough focus on fan satisfaction. You would think in a city of about 15 million people, you could fill a stadium with 15-20k per match. But no, attendance in BKK is far outpaced by attendance in the hinterlands. Proper intensive marketing would go a long way to helping this issue. I lived in Bangkok for 10 years before I even knew there was a league. Honestly, how the hell can that happen? Well, very little to no marketing is how it happens. No kits in malls, no events, very few billboards, little to no media blitz, etc. The city and its neighborhoods should be filled with team colors and merch. Are the owners really that wealthy that they don’t care? Fan satisfaction is what it is about. Too little attention is paid to the supporters. Perhaps this is why many Thais shun their home league. IMHO the league seems to be more about wealthy owners stroking their egos as opposed to fan satisfaction. I mean honestly, we are the fans. It is the team’s job to keep us happy. Supporters will only take to this for so long. Solution- TPL and teams shoulder the responsibility for marketing collectively. Strategies are developed and implemented in tandem. Owners need to hire marketing staff that is fan focused. Something very few teams do.
My gal got us into being supporters, and now she does not even attend all of the matches. Many of the reasons above express how she feels. I can’t say that I differ in opinion. I am far less “into it” in comparison with a year or two ago.
There is so much potential with the league. But, like so many things that have potential in Thailand, they are hardly ever realized. I certainly hope that things improve with the league and that is dos not backslide. While I remain hopeful, I am not optimistic.
Reply #2
Name: Matt Riley
Team supported: Suphanburi
Twitter: @mattRiley16
This year's staccato season has highlighted many of Thai football's shortfalls and poor planning. A full league programme is arranged 24 hours before Liverpool's cash drop. Who knew? Everybody. The national team perform well against insipid opposition so another week is grafted on to a season that is now part of the festive one.
Thai football is a Curate's Egg to Western observers. To fully enjoy it, you have to let a lot slide. There are too many times when a full frontal lobotomy is needed in order to fully embrace the garish pantomime served up and, it seems, an increasing number of Bangkokians have better things to do with their time.
With some exceptions, attendances in the provinces remain strong and rising. However, to a casual television observer, there is lessening motivation to brave traffic gridlock, unroofed stands in the rainy season (more great planning) and sacrificial referees when a satellite subscription and a cold beer on the sofa guarantees wall to wall world class games.
Reply#3
Name: Dominick Cartwright
Team supported: Port FC
Twitter: @dominick_1975
Foreign Players rule
I think the new foreigner rule (5 in the squad and 3+1 Asian player on the pitch) has obviously reduced quality in the league.Even though more foreign players would create a better product,I think this rule is a good half way house. It balances the need for Thai players and the need for good football. Whatever rule you have it’s difficult for the smaller clubs to attract players. When it was 7 the big clubs had 5 superstars playing and 2 waiting around for injuries or cup games and I think that widened the gap between the bigger and smaller clubs. Either way I think that the money rather than the rule is the key factor in that gap.
The Japanese and Chinese league have the 5 in the squad 3+1 on the pitch rules, the Vietnamese league is even more restrictive with only 2 foreigners. The Malaysian system is almost exactly the same. If Thai football and Thai clubs want to compete in AFC competitions then they should be playing with the same rules doing the same amount to give opportunities to homegrown talent.When it comes to developing national teams people talk about the foreign quota system a lot, but the development of a good youth system at every top level club is just as important. This definitely needs looking at in the TPL, every club should be putting money into youth teams and developing local talent not just focusing on the starting 11 on match day.
Improving the TPL
For me the biggest problem in 2015 has been the incredibly annoying stop and start nature of the season. I heard three people say virtually the same sentence about how they are not really getting into this season, “There’s a break every other monthwhat the hell’s going on?”. I think people understand breaks for the national side every league does that that but breaks for the Under 23 side as well? It’s destroying the league and the players who are involved in these squads are going to be playing 11 months of football they will probably end up getting more injuries. This if this continues it might well lead to more friction between club and country. If clubs see injuries depletingthe top players in their squads we are going to start seeing more mysterious one week injuries as clubs try to hold on to their players. Let’s just have breaks for the national team and not screw up the fixtures like this year.
Developing the league advertising is one thing but first you need to have decent appreciated crowds.I remember going to a Chonburi v Melbourne Victory game and seeing “Chonburi pretties” firing free T-shirts into the crowd before the game. I thought this was the way things were going to be at every club in the future. Really made me think this was the beginning of a new era. I wasn’t I’m still wait for my free Port T-shirt. It’s a simple thing but it shows the club is literally giving something back. The trouble is most clubs aren’t doing anything like this. This season at Port we have finally got the 3 or 4 stalls where you shoot a ball through a cardboard target it’s nice to have them, but they are what you would get in a shopping mall on an average Saturday wanting to sell the newest version of the same old energy drink. These stalls are promos for the products not the club giving anything back. I was very happy with my free snickers bar butit’s just more advertising. We have had two free concerts this year which were a reasonable success. But there are simple non-product linked things you can do. When you start giving just a bit of free merchandise away before kick off the good will you create is better than 500 stalls trying to promote stuff or flog albums.
This isn’t about paying people to cheer it’s about rewarding the fans that come every week in the burning heat and pouring rain. It’s simple and fairly cheap. I think TPL clubs can build from the grass roots. If you have a friend who played in a team’s youth system you feel that club is part of the community. The club comes round and gives away 50 free footballs to a local school those children are going to have a connection to that club. And again 50 footballs are not a great expense this isn’t rocket science it’s PR 101. And some clubs are doing it but with the money all the clubs are shelling out on players it should be the norm.
Is the TPL really dying on it’s arse? The Korat v Buriram game this season shows the very best and the very worst of what’s happening in the TPL. It was brilliant to see a packed stadium with a record attendance two fairly evenly matched clubs who both have massive fan bases. Unfortunately reports from the crowd were more about how massively unsafe it was. Trying to get everyone in was put above stadium safety. I heard the same thing about the game with a free concert which had 25,000 people + at Korat. Some sort of safeguards need to be in place, the TPL needs to look at this problem before something goes seriously wrong. Crowds regularly funnel through one meter wide entry points in grounds all over the TPL.
On the positive side outside Bangkok there are signs of clubs with the genuine support of their province growing. They are largely politician led but this was always going to be the way in Thailand. I do genuinely feel more clubs in the league are developing more of an identity. I used to look at the TPL and really see only a few clubs that fans might stay with through a bad season or two, but now with Suphanburi, Korat, Sisaketand Chiang Rai joining other established teams and I think there is more hope for the TPL. There are a few outliers like Osotspa, TOT and Navy. Osotspa moving to SamutPrakan next year might be the solution for the wandering club. I don’t see much hope for TOT and Navy. TOT’s management seem to be looking around to sell or bring in a magic sponsor to save the day, it won’t solve the problem look at “Air Force Central” and how well that worked. Navy’s ground is stuck in the middle of nowhere and look like yo-yoing back and forth till someone either cuts the funding or wins the lottery.
Referees
On referees there is no league in the world where referees are lauded as jolly good eggs who are doing their best. It’s a very difficult job but they shouldn’t be getting the basics wrong. A points system for refs is a good idea and having to maintain a certain level to stay refereeing the top games should help. I think something like this already exists but I would like to see who is saying certain people are doing a good job. Also an open review system for contentious decisions and diving players would be a great help especially with the regular amount of terrible decisions we see every week. But asking for this and asking the TPL for transparency we might as well be asking them for the moon on a stick.
Reply #4
Name: Rob McEvoy
Team supported: n/a
Twitter: @robmcevoythai
I think the question is leading, and slightly out of kilter with what is happening.
1 - TPL has just had its record crowd, 34800 however controversially, with thousands of people left outside
2 - The title race is close, with a number of teams playing good football, better than last year for certain. The teams close to Buriram (Chonburi excepted) have all improved on the pitch from what Ive seen.
3 - Thai Mens & Womens National Teams have won the last 4 tournaments theyve entered (WWC exempted)
4 - A foreign coach has been given a new 3 year deal and has full control over transfers. Unheard of before.
5 - 2 of the teams at the bottom have new investors, the lovely Madam Pang and TOT have a new ambitious owner it seems.
6 - You cant watch TV without seeing Zico, Chanatip, Kawin or Chappuis. Sponsors know when something is popular.
The glass may not be full, but it is not empty. If you want to see a sport failing to deliver, have a look at Volleyball League coverage. To improve the league, and perceptions of it, certainly things can be done
1 - Currently the Thai FA are sacrificing the TPL for the national team a bit. I think long term its a good decision, the Thai MNT do raise awareness, and Thai football stars are a lot more popular than they were. However, for the TPL, it is not good missing 4 weeks here, 6 weeks there, then 2 games a week for weeks on end
2 - There is nothing less sapping than watching a game in an empty stadium, so
2a Stadium Roofs. As clubs play through the wet season in the early evening, roofs are fairly essential for supporters. You cant expect people to go to games when they are pretty guaranteed to get soaked through.
2b - Teams in BKK owning areas of the city and marketing to them. This is starting to happen hopefully, with Osotspa moving to Samut Prakan soon, maybe TOT moving now they arent owned by TOT. BEC Tero crowds look ok, Bkk Glass crowds and Bkk United crowds look much better than before at the games. Then you will see crowds like the provinces, where province pride is proving profitable.
3 - A match of the day type program on Channel 3 or 7 would help both Thai football and True Visions.
4 - The management of injured players by referees is better I think. Certainly less non injuries, though still too many. However, the linesman have to give more benefit of the doubt to forwards, referees less soft penalties, and no bookings for taking a free kick quickly.
Reply #5
Name: Malcolm Imray
Team supported: n/a
Twitter: @BKKFootballBlog
Is the TPL really losing its appeal or is it me that’s losing interest? The second point is certainly valid but the first one is open to debate. I’ve met a few people recently who are new to watching Thai football and they share the same enthusiasm that I did a few years ago when I first started watching the TPL. In that time, several people that I knew who followed Thai football have stopped going to matches and, the ones that are still attending games appear to be going through the motions.
As Tommie stated in his opening point, the standard of competition seems to have decreased. With less foreigners permitted to play this has led to an increase in the amount of Thais in each club squad. In my opinion, there isn’t enough depth in quality from the homegrown players, so many who are Division 1 standard have been elevated up to the top flight to fill the void and likewise the first division has many players that should be playing in the regional leagues. On the positive side, I would say the TPL teams are more professional in their approach and the quality of coaching has improved, especially at the higher end of the TPL.
For me when I first started going to Thai football matches it was a pleasant experience mingling with the friendly, colourfully dressed Thai fans. Gradually the novelty has worn off and as I’ve been to the majority of the stadiums in the top 2 tiers, the thrill of visiting a new province/stadium doesn’t have the same appeal when returning again. The egotism and nepotism of the club owners is also a big turnoff for me. They like to plaster pictures of themselves on social media and around the venues as they think they are doing the local community a massive favor. At the end of the day, they’re just caressing their own self-importance and aiming to increase their power and wealth. I’d prefer it if they took a back seat and got on with running their football clubs in a professional manner.
As I mentioned earlier, the league has become more professional, but there are still too many schedule alterations and the standard of refereeing has remained well below par. These are another couple of reasons why fans have slipped away. Also this latest trend of charging an extra tariff for away fans is unnecessary, especially when they are given the worst vantage point in the stadiums.
Reply #6
Name: Vinnie
Team supported: Nakhon Ratchasima Stingray
Twitter: @Paul_Hewitt
Well, the TPL has permanently lost its appeal for me. I've recently shut down the @NRFC_Unofficial twitter account and the sister Facebook page, and I will no longer update the website. Having started supporting the club when they were still in the Provincial League, it was no small matter to cut my ties with the club now that they are sitting in their highest ever league position. So I can only give reasons why it lost its appeal for me; I can't speak for Thais who may also be drifting away from the TPL. And, oddly enough, it's disappointing and encouraging in equal measure if they are fed up with things.
In my case, I've simply had enough of a club which is big enough to attract over 30,000 fans to home games, but still so small and poorly organised internally that a youth system, a proper website, even a contact telephone number are still all pie in the sky. I'm fed up with "General Managers", who generally don't manage anything, sitting on the bench, spouting pompous ill-informed rubbish, all with no previous football experience. I'm fed up with unskilled, unqualified coaches and their feeble excuses when things go wrong. I'm fed up with diving, cheating, nasty, arrogant, aggressive, and apparently racist players. Fed up with the appalling referees and the transparent corruption.
Matt's right: you do have to let a lot slide if you are to fully enjoy it. But I'm at the "enough is enough" point. And I'd rather hang onto my morality than indulge this ridiculous pantomime any longer.
Vinnie (Nakhon Ratchasima Stingray fan)
Reply #7
Name: Paul Murphy
Team supported: Army Utd
Twitter: @PaulmurphyBKK
I’m not convinced the TPL is losing its appeal beyond a few jaded expats for whom the novelty has worn off. Novelties will always eventually wear off and, after a certain period, the Thai football experience is just not as much fun as it once was.
The colour, the convivial atmosphere and the availability of alcohol offer an instant opportunity for foreign fans to integrate with the locals and this creates an unforgettable impact when first consumed. However, as the years pass, people inevitably yearn for the ‘good, old days’ when tickets were cheaper, there were fewer rules and regulations and, well, it was all refreshingly different.
Now in my third TPL season here, I admit I have fonder memories of the exhilarating first season than the second and this season has probably been less fun again but that’s the novelty factor. Going to the football here is still something I look forward to every other week.
However, I am concerned that the popularity for locals may take a nosedive for the following reasons:
1) Rising ticket prices
Going to see Army United cost 100 baht in 2013, 120 baht in 2014, and now costs 130 baht in 2015. While this is still incredibly cheap for those used to paying at least £25-£30 to see a game in the UK, the rate of increase is incredible – 30% in two years. That is unsustainable and is sure to be a turn-off for many fans if it continues and is the same trend at other clubs.
2) Location and quality of stadia
This is a particular issue for Bangkok sides struggling for a fan base. Muang Thong United and Bangkok Glass have done okay despite being far from the city centre but the two most central clubs – Army United and Bangkok United – have a hard time attracting fans. The volume of Army’s support will always be limited by the perceived ties to the military, particularly at this time. However, Bangkok United have it all going on in terms of forward thinking direction, a solid coaching team and improving performances on the pitch. They are based in a reasonably central location but the stadium consistently ranks among the poorest fan experiences and they still struggle for numbers. Perhaps a purpose-built stadium in the Makkasan swamp area would be the solution.
BEC Tero Sasana have the kind of quaint little stadium that would grace a provincial European town but its location represents the taxi ride from hell. Osotspa (Saraburi) are still homeless after two years.
As well as Muang Thong and Bangkok Glass, provincial clubs, where land is admittedly less pricey than Bangkok, have taken the lead in building impressive new stadiums. Buriram United, Chiang Rai United and PTT Rayong have fine arenas and Ratchaburi, Pattaya and Chonburi should soon have stadiums that attract new fans if plans come to fruition. Most potential for growth arguably lies outside the capital in towns where football clubs form focal points for communities.
3) Lack of competition
The TPL is getting more and more predictable and, as things stand, it is difficult to see anyone but Buriram or Muang Thong win for the foreseeable future.
Even further down the table, it has become easier to predict the top 6, mid-table battlers, and relegation bait. It is difficult to imagine a repeat of Suphanburi’s feat of finishing 4th in the first season back in the TPL just two years ago.
It is the fate of almost every league when team budgets become disparate and it shouldn’t be a surprise but it can put fans off bothering when the outcome seems inevitable.
Reply #8
Name: Russ John
Team supported: Nakorn Ratchasima
Twitter: @russreport
Speaking as a fan who was present in the recent NRFC v Buriram crowd of 34,659 I am bound to ask problem, what problem………but seriously, I Agree wholeheartedly with the views of Tommie.
His views mirror exactly what I have been voicing for the last few years. The fact is, no one cares about the lack of spectators. Most clubs have not moved with the times and owners (with a few exceptions) see their teams as an expensive personal toy.
So here we have it, a spectator sport with no spectators. How sponsors pour money in defies belief – one day they will start pulling the plug.
I still do not comprehend how and why Swatcats, as an average mid table team, can attract such vast crowds. My only advice to teams would be to find out why Buriram and Korat succeed in attracting fans.
Contentious I know but the league somehow must get rid of poorly attended teams and encourage teams from the provinces to participate. Areas of high population who have been starved of “top class” football such as Udon Thani should be targeted.
I have a feeling that NRFC’s success with spectators is due entirely to the fact that Thailand’s second biggest city (arguably) has been without a top class team for so long.
I sincerely wish the future TPL well but to be honest, there appears to be no will to change. I personally think that there needs to be a breakaway “Provincial League” with maybe 10 teams. It will need to include Buriram, NRFC and 8 others. Improve the quality of football, market effectively and then flog the TV rights “Asia-wide…..job done!!!!!
Reply #9
Name: Lewis Caple
Team supported: Army Utd
Twitter: @Caple82
Another weekend and I've failed to travel to another game. I haven't been to a league game since walking out of the Muang Thong game on the 5th July. The only game that I've bothered to go to was the league cup game this past Wednesday away at Ayutthaya. Plenty of reasons have been given for the TPL losing its appeal. I agree with a lot of these, ticket prices, the foreigner rule and the lack of competition.
The main reason for me losing interest lately is the state of our club. I'm very disillusioned at the current moment. No foresight and direction. The chopping and changing. No long term plans. The fickle nature of some of our Thai fans, supporting another TPL side as well as Army? FFS come on now. Get a grip. Hopefully they can sort themselves internally sooner rather than later.
Reply #10
Name: Brian Enever
Team supported: Chonburi
Twitter: n/a
An interesting topic. And one we probably discuss more than any other, although we tend talk about various parts in isolation rather than looking at the whole package.
Whoever we support I think we have probably all noticed a marked deterioration in the quality of the football this season. At Chonburi I can't believe we are in sixth position. Compared to last season we are very poor with no shape ,pattern, purpose or determination to our game. In fact a friend came to watch his first TPL match when we played Navy a couple of weeks ago and he likened it to the local county league football he coached back in the UK.
The money men/owners have got to shoulder a major part of the decline. It's down to their decision making that has reduced us to the poor quality we are now watching.
I agree with Tommie that the reduction in foreign players has brought about a reduction in the quality of Thai players. But, while the ultimate aim must be to increase the quality of Thai players, they will only improve by playing with and against the better quality (foreign?) players and coached by better quality (foreign?) coaches. We need their quality in the TPL. Reducing their numbers doesn't work, I would much rather see some sort of minimum standard foreign players need to be at before being allowed to play here. The Jaime Braganca's of this world should be filtered out long before they make the TPL a laughing stock.
Likewise we need quality coaches, whether they be good foreign coaches brought into Thailand or whether they are Thai coaches who have been abroad on courses to obtain a minimum standard, we will not improve the standard of the TPL with the present system.
Football supporters watch quality European football week in, week out on TV. They are not going to want to come in any numbers to watch a second rate TPL.
Trying to get a big improvement in the current Thai National side by tinkering with the system is a non starter. The players we have in the TPL now are at/near their peak already. Yes, improvements will come with better coaching and playing with/against better quality players but the Thai FA need to start at ground level and have a ten to fifteen year plan to see a real improvement in Thai players. Only then will we see a real improvement in the Thai National side.
In the meantime, the priority now should be to make the TPL as attractive to watch as possible, increase the quotas to bring in better quality players from other countries, and market the league to make it attractive to the locals, especially the young ones. Give schools free tickets for their pupils. 'Attach' a club player to each school to teach them about football and encourage them to attend matches, etc, etc. There are plenty of ways to get youngsters into the grounds on a regular basis.
Ask the average Thai supporter who they support and most will name a top European side, and name all their players. But ask about, say Chonburi, and most couldn't even say whether they're at home or away this week, and naming any players is a complete non starter.
I think, over the years, we have done to death the problems of abysmal referees/linesmen, diving, feigning injury, and general cheating that we see week after week. Of course this isn't acceptable but it will only improve if the powers that be want it to. Strong referees will only come if there's strong leadership at the very top setting the right standards for the rest to follow.
Whether by fair means or foul, clubs like Buriram, Muang Thong, Nakhon Ratchasima and Bangkok Glass, etc market their clubs to the general public and are rewarded with a larger and more consistent following. Not only does that bring in extra revenue from admission fees it (probably) brings in far more revenue from increased sponsorship.
If the rest of us, if we want to see a successful TPL, should take note and learn.
The Final Word
Name: Tommie Duncan
Team supported: Port FC
Twitter: @TJRDBKK
First and foremost thanks a million to Dale for the effort. I really appreciate the time that you take and the opportunity that you give us to “air ourselves out.”
Let me preface my ending comments by saying that I am a firm believer that all leagues should be fan centric. Supporters are the end all of end alls. That is why the league exists. To me the TPL seems far from being fan centric. In fact, it seems to exist for the glorification of the owners and the higher-ups in the league. Self-aggrandizement is the order of the day. Why must a league be fan centric? Because at the end of the day it should be the fans’ and sponsors’ money that keep the club and league going. But of course in the TPL fan money means little to nothing.
Some really excellent points brought forth on this topic. It is interesting to see the progression foreign fans tend to follow here as Paul pointed out. The TPL does in ways lose its luster with many of us as the seasons come and go. Most of us are raised in nations with very developed sporting cultures and I think we often forget that true professional sports are in their infancy here. In the US, OZ, and Europe we have had big time sporting leagues for years. And for sure had some of the same issues the TPL has while our leagues were developing. I think it is very easy for us to think that those running the show will learn from the mistakes other leagues have made. Quite the contrary, T.I.T., these guys will insist on doing it their way no matter what the consequences are. Those of us who have lived here for a long time realize this attitude permeates all aspects of this society.
That being said, it is still very disappointing to see so little done to address issues that would make the game fairer, more enjoyable to watch, and more transparent in order to really capture the hearts of the general population. In fact, what we often see is the opposite. I would consider the action seen at Port today regarding Gary, the opposite.
In regards to my own support of Port and the league in general, it does become harder and harder to stay enamored or at least engaged. I will wear a black shirt to the FA Cup match tonight, boo the new coach, and shout Gary’s name throughout the match. I really identify with Vinnie’s position and his feelings about the TPL and the club. Perhaps at some point I will search out a club that is well run, with eyes to the future, treats it’s fans like gold, has a wonderful purpose built stadium, a visionary owner, and has a rabid supporter base like Port…and is in central Bangkok. Yeah, I know, but let me dream.
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